Mitt and Mormonism

There is no doubt that our country is between a rock and a hard place.  Admittedly, it is politically incorrect to explain, much less to discuss, why.  Religion has become particularly taboo when assessing candidates whether they’re Black Liberationists with Marxist leanings or spit-shined Mormons with magic underpants and a faith in a god who lives on the planet “Kolob.”  We’ve become a nation where the First Amendment protections mean that it is now forbidden to question a man’s religion even when considering his qualification for public office.

Not that long ago there were genuine fears about electing John Kennedy as America’s first Roman Catholic president.  As it turned out those fears were unfounded as it wasn’t the pope pulling JFK’s string.  Even as recently as 1988, the same year Ron Paul first ran for president as a Libertarian, the Trinity Foundation was threatened with the loss of its tax exempt status because of John Robbins’ book; Pat Robertson: A Warning to America.  Evidently questioning Robertson’s charismatic faith along with his  “prophetic” visions during an election year can get your book banned.

Things have slid so far that I can’t even imagine anyone today, including those calling themselves “Evangelicals,” being even remotely concerned about a VP candidate who might actually be dancing his 6% body fat to the Vatican’s tune.  Consequently, questioning Romney’s Mormonism is either a throwback to a less enlightened era or is just irrelevant.  I mean, anything is better than Obama right?

In an attempt to assuage any remaining Evangelical concerns about his religious beliefs,  Romney recently told a reporter with the Washington Post:

“For me, there’s no question. I believe in a Heavenly Father, I believe in his Son Jesus Christ, I believe in the Holy Ghost. These are features that are part of many people’s faith in this country; other folks have differing views”

Almost sounds Trinitarian, right?  Perhaps, except for the fact that Mormon’s aren’t even remotely Trinitarian, and, according to the LDS website, “Latter-day Saints do reject the doctrines of the Trinity as taught by most Christian churches today.”  While there are a number of good sites on the web that offer some excellent summaries of Mormon doctrines, including their rejection of the Trinity in favor of a form of polytheism, I thought the following was a particularly good list of Mormon doctrines from a group of ex-Mormons that might be helpful for some when deciding who to vote for … or if they should vote at all:

  • God was once a man like us.
  • God has a tangible body of flesh and bone.
  • God lives on a planet near the star Kolob.
  • God (“Heavenly Father”) has at least one wife, our “Mother in Heaven,” but she is so holy that we are not to discuss her nor pray to her.
  • Jesus was married.
  • We can become like God and rule over our own universe.
  • There are many gods, ruling over their own worlds.
  • Jesus and Satan (“Lucifer”) are brothers, and they are our brothers – we are all spirit children of Heavenly Father
  • Jesus Christ was conceived by God the Father by having sex with Mary, who was temporarily his wife.
  • We should not pray to Jesus, nor try to feel a personal relationship with him.
  • The “Lord” (“Jehovah”) in the Old Testament is the being named Jesus in the New Testament, but different from “God the Father” (“Elohim”).
  • In the highest degree of the celestial kingdom some men will have more than one wife.
  • Before coming to this earth we lived as spirits in a “pre-existence”, during which we were tested; our position in this life (whether born to Mormons or savages, or in America or Africa) is our reward or punishment for our obedience in that life.
  • Dark skin is a curse from God, the result of our sin, or the sin of our ancestors. If sufficiently righteous, a dark-skinned person will become light-skinned.
  • The Garden of Eden was in Missouri. All humanity before the Great Flood lived in the western hemisphere. The Ark transported Noah and the other survivors to the eastern hemisphere.
  • Not only will human beings be resurrected to eternal life, but also all animals – everything that has ever lived on earth – will be resurrected and dwell in heaven.
  • Christ will not return to earth in any year that has seen a rainbow.
  • Mormons should avoid traveling on water, since Satan rules the waters.
  • The sun receives its light from the star Kolob.
  • If a Gentile becomes Mormon, the Holy Ghost actually purges his Gentile blood and replaces it with Israelite blood.
  • A righteous Mormon will actually see the face of God in the Mormon temple.
  • You can identify a false angel by the color of his hair, or by offering to shake his hand.

You can find more here.  See also Mormonism 101 by Kevin DeYoung and Mormonism, Democracy, and the Urgent Need for Evangelical Thinking by Al Mohler.

Advertisements
Explore posts in the same categories: Heresies, Politics

145 Comments on “Mitt and Mormonism”

  1. Steve M Says:

    ” I mean, anything is better than Obama right?”

    Right!

  2. hughmc5 Says:

    Well, maybe not anything, but . . .

    ELECT HOLY UNDERGARMENTS ÜBER-DOGCATCHER!

  3. Hugh Says:

    Who are YOU voting for, Boy Wonder?

    Holy Underwear, Batman!

  4. Rt. Revd J. David McGuire, DD Says:

    I suppose this means that you wish we had Pat Robertson on the ticket instead of a kicker of socialists a**es!

  5. LJ Says:

    I’m not one of those people that say there’s no difference between Repubs and Dems. Clearly there are differences and the Repubs are, overall, slightly better. For instance, the Repubs tend as a group to be much more pro-life than the Dems and the Repubs, again, tend more towards free market views than the Dems.

    That being said, the two parties are BOTH doing our country a terrible disservice with their anti-Christian and anti-Constitutional cumulative voting records. Here’s an interesting take on the Repubs from a website that calls itself “Libertarian Christian.”

    http://libertarianchristians.com/2012/09/12/lies-damn-lies-and-the-republican-party-platform/?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+libertarianchristians+%28LibertarianChristians.com%29

    I read blogs on this site regularly and the theology might loosely be categorized as non-Reformed, Baptistic, Dispensational, semi-Arminian; that’s about the best I can do to categorize the theology. But I would be interested in opinions regarding his analysis of the Republican party’s record.

    LJ

  6. LJ Says:

    So what does what I wrote have to do with Mitt and Mormonism? Only that what you get with the meal along with your dish of mormon insanity is a huge side-order of Establishment Republicanism.

    Save up your Tagamet, food, water, ammo, and a copy of Kingdom of the Cults …

  7. Sean Gerety Says:

    So many excellent points in the above mentioned piece it’s hard to know where to begin. I think the two points that pretty much captured it for me was:

    “Republicans only want a government limited to a government controlled by Republicans.”

    And,

    “And never mind the nineteen times that abortion is mentioned in the Republican platform. The promise of ending abortion is the carrot held just out of reach of gullible conservatives to get them to continue to vote Republican in every election hoping that the Republicans will actually do something.”

    Spot on. I can see why conspiracy theories are so attractive and some might even be true. No matter to which side the pendulum swings the arms of the clock always seem to move in the same direction.

  8. Hugh Says:

    …the arms of the clock always seem to move in the same direction.

    Amen! Down with triumphalistic Postmillennialism!

  9. Hugh McCann Says:

    Sean,
    Thanks for link to RICHARD PACKHAM site. I am researching LDS as they are increasingly prevalent in my neighborhood as well as my nation.

  10. LJ Says:

    Amen! Down with triumphalistic Postmillennialism!

    Amen! Up with pessimistic amillenialism 🙂

    Or, uh, did I mean … oh heck I forget!

  11. LJ Says:

    @ Sean: So many excellent points in the above mentioned piece it’s hard to know where to begin.

    I’ve come to enjoy reading this guy. He has some good political insights and is solidly Libertarian. He’s a bit taken with Lew Rockwell, but Rockwell is often right in spite of his Romish presuppositions.

    LJ

  12. LJ Says:

    @ Hugh: … I am researching LDS as they are increasingly prevalent in my neighborhood as well as my nation.

    Wait’ll Capt. Underpants is POTUS. The LDS are lurching toward ubiquity … thanks to the Repubs, even Christian Repubs 😦

    LJ

  13. Hugh Says:

    Ex-LDS guy Richard Packham is now an atheist, BTW.

  14. Hugh Says:

    was ist “POTUS”?

  15. LJ Says:

    POTUS: President of the United States

    I think an atheist is closer to the kingdom of heaven than a Mormon.

  16. Hugh Says:

    Thanks, LJ. Could we write you in? 😉

    You think an atheist is closer to the kingdom of heaven than a Mormon.

    That’s as may be. So what? We’re voting for dogcatcher, not pastor or pope.

    Packham may be nearer the kingdom than Mittens, but I still check his “facts.” One reason is that the LDSs are a shapeshifting lot. Their revelations (like the BVM in Fatima or Medjugorje) are ever being revised. I doubt that Packham keeps up or cares.

  17. Lauren Says:

    Thanks for sharing this, Sean. When I was a high school junior I went with my brother and my girlfriend to the Mormon Pageant in Palmyra, NY. As we drove off the Thruway, a car slid off the rain soaked road and plowed into us. Nobody was hurt but needless to say, we didn’t make it to the pageant. Looking back today as a Christian, I realize that the accident was God’s grace in keeping us from being taken in by this cult as teenagers.

    I have noticed that a separate section has been set aside for books on Mormonism in the religious section of Barnes and Noble. So, Christians better take a second look at who or what they are voting for. I’ve had a few interesting discussions with friends on facebook. One argument that is made is that we are not electing a pastor-in-chief but a commander-in-chief. But a president will always act and make decisions on what he believes just like everybody else in the world. We have certainly seen Obama act out his Muslim faith.

    I also noticed that Romney’s Mormonism was on display at the RNC convention with several testimonies from church families. And, it was mentioned several times how he was a pastor – Mormon bishop to be exact. I don’t think the Mormon church is going to pass up this opportunity to promote themselves on the national level. When Huckabee was running for president, there was a little uproar on the fact that he was a Baptist minister and would try to establish his religion while in office. But Romney being a Mormon bishop doesn’t seem to bother anybody. Anybody that is a leader in a cult will not promote a limited government with limited power. It’s not in their DNA.

  18. LJ Says:

    Hugh: Thanks, LJ. Could we write you in?

    I’d never pass muster since there’s too many skeletons in my BC (before Christ) closet 😉

    Maybe in the New Heavens and the New Earth? Wait, there won’t be any government since, as I understand it, government is a necessary evil because of sin. Therefore, when righteousness fills the earth there’ll be no need for government; at least not a government that is necessary to punish evil doers.

    But in the meantime, if you’re so motivated, I am accepting large and small campaign donations. Shall I send you my P. O. Box number? I accept cash or checks.

    LJ

  19. Steve M Says:

    I am finally convinced that withholding my vote from the only candidate that could possibly prevent another four years of Obama is the righteous thing to do. I have actually decided to go one step further and join the Obama campaign:

    http://obamafordc2012.blogspot.com/2012/09/a-more-honest-campaign-poster.html

  20. Sean Gerety Says:

    @Lauren

    ” I’ve had a few interesting discussions with friends on facebook. One argument that is made is that we are not electing a pastor-in-chief but a commander-in-chief.”

    While I don’t think O is a Muslim (after all he spent 20 years attending Jeremiah. Wright’s church), the other thing to consider about Romney is the Mormon belief that faithful Mormons are on a path to self-deification. After all, Brigham Young said; “The Lord created you and me for the purpose of becoming God like himself; We are created . . . to become Gods like unto our Father in heaven.” And, Joseph Smith wrote:

    “First, God himself, who sits enthroned in yonder heavens, is a man like unto one of yourselves, that is the great secret…. I am going to tell you how God came to be God. We have imagined that God was God from all eternity…. God himself; the Father of us all dwelt on an earth the same as Jesus Christ himself did…. You have got to learn how to be Gods yourselves…. No man can learn you more than what I have told you” (Times and Seasons, vol. 5, pp. 613-14 – http://www.utlm.org/onlinebooks/changech7.htm)

    So, we may end up with a god in the White House or at least someone who thinks he is.

  21. Steve M Says:

    “So, we may end up with a god in the White House or at least someone who thinks he is.”

    We already have that.

  22. justbybelief Says:

    “Up with pessimistic amillenialism”

    I love the eschatology of doom and gloom, so called.

  23. Hugh Says:

    Amillennialism is not overly pessimistic, nor optimistic. It strikes the perfect, biblical balance: All the glory & hope of the Posties with all the sobriety & urgency of the Preemies. With none of the attendant follies of either of these!

  24. justbybelief Says:

    All that the Posties have is wishful thinking and Preemies, fear-mongering. Although Posties have hope and glory it is not Biblical hope or glory. Same as the Preemies. Theirs is not a Biblical sense of urgency or sobriety.

    Ours is biblical optimism which places hope only in Christ and His kingdom which comes down from heaven as it is presented in the Bible. Ours is biblical pessimism which places no hope in this world or the things in it.

  25. Ron Says:

    Sean, my last four posts have been related to this matter. Not trying to promote my Blog in the least. This one in particular, which was the first one, seems to have generated the most interest.

    Keep up the good work!

    http://reformedapologist.blogspot.com/2012/08/voting-for-romney-without-hesitation.html

  26. LJ Says:

    Amill straw man arguments 👎against postmill eschatology make me wonder if you’ve ever actually read a good postmill advocate.

    That the gospel and the Almighty are victorious in time is not wishful thinking but definitely hopeful thinking 👍.

    Is the hopeless “abandon ship” attitude of the Amills biblical? I don’t think so. But I admit your arguments are very tricksie, yesssss my precioussssss, very tricksie 😂

  27. Sean Gerety Says:

    Thanks Ron for the link. Excellent post.

  28. LJ Says:

    This copied from Reformed Apologist blog regarding a vote for Romney:

    “Yup, conservatives are swimming out into unchartered waters voting for someone whose creed is anti-Christ. These are unprecedented times. As you say, it’s as though King Jesus doesn’t distinguish between one depraved man whose unbelief manifests itself in political oppression and another whose radical depravity would lead him to confess unspeakable things about the Lord.”

    11:45 PM

  29. justbybelief Says:

    “Amill straw man arguments against postmill eschatology make me wonder if you’ve ever actually read a good postmill advocate.”

    I’ve been inundated with Postmil rubbish for years. Their is no Biblical hope for the re-establishment of an earthly Christian kingdom, as if there was really ever one to begin with, before Christ returns.

    “That the gospel and the Almighty are victorious in time is not wishful thinking but definitely hopeful thinking.”

    True enough, but theirs is not a biblical view of its manifestation.

    “Is the hopeless “abandon ship” attitude of the Amills biblical? I don’t think so. But I admit your arguments are very tricksie, yesssss my precioussssss, very tricksie.”

    Now that’s a straw man. This is the very false teaching that Postmils have pawned off for years.

  30. Hugh Says:

    LJ @ 20:56am – It’s far from the first time. Mitt’s antichristianity is semi-codified (nothing is constant in the LDS), but he’s not the first anit-Christian the saints have we’ve voted for, and he prolly won’t be the last.

    “Antichrist Undergarments for Commander-in-Chief”???
    Unwieldy for a slogan, perhaps. But kinda catchy!

    Hearty ditto to Eric’s @ 2:26am!

  31. LJ Says:

    Guess I saw your straw man and raised you one 😉

    Let’s call it a day and talk about electing the Abomination of Desolation, or some facsimile thereof, Mitt Romney.

  32. Hugh Says:

    Can antichrist have such nice hair?

  33. Hugh Says:

    & a hearty “Amen” to Eric’s @ 11:12am!

    The hopefullest thinking is gospel/ Christ/ cross centered!

    The folly of a theology of glory/ victory is sadly delusional.

    Posters carnalize & miss the warfare, looking for a pre-consummational Anti-antichrist.

    Our Preem bros carnalize & miss the pre-consummational glory, seeking only the 666.

    {My 11:14 post was meant to reference LJ’s @ 10:56am…}

  34. justbybelief Says:

    “Guess I saw your straw man and raised you one. Let’s call it a day…”

    Darn it, I felt like arguing today 🙂

    “Our Preem…seeking only the 666.”

    Hugh, is that literally? 🙂

  35. Hugh Says:

    Why no, it’s symbolic…

    No, wait, it’s a tatoo on the forehead…

    No, it’s a micro-chip implanted…

    No, wait, it IS literal; it means he’ll be 6′ tall, weigh 600lbs, & wear size 6 shoes. HAVEN’T YOU EVER READ THE BOOK OF REVELATON?!

  36. justbybelief Says:

    “No, wait, it IS literal; it means he’ll be 6′ tall, weigh 600lbs, & wear size 6 shoes.”

    It must be true. It’s a miracle he can stand on his feet.

  37. Hugh Says:

    Jaba the Hutt for antichrist.

  38. LJ Says:

    Hugh: Posters carnalize & miss the warfare, looking for a pre-consummational Anti-antichrist.

    Hasty generalization.

    I’m decidedly Postmill and I hold no such view. Neither do any of my Calvinist Reformed Postmill brethren. You’ve been reading the wrong Posties my friend. Stay away from that bunch in Moscow; Idaho that is.

  39. justbybelief Says:

    “nothing is constant in the LDS”

    I know, Hugh. Even amongst them they have differing beliefs, even at the top. I always thought Mormonism was a monolithic whole. It is not. I’ve tried to nail down what they believe so that I can address some Mormon friends and am having a difficult time with it.

  40. justbybelief Says:

    “I’m decidedly Postmill”

    OK, I’ll bite. So was Charles Hodge, but his was a different stripe than most we find today. It more closely resembled Amilleniallism

  41. justbybelief Says:

    LJ,

    So you don’t believe in an age-of-christian-glory before Christ’s return?

    Eric

  42. Hugh Says:

    LJ,

    To be on the safe (biblical) side, I’ll avoid not only the Muscovites, but also Rushdoony, DeMar, Gentry, Jordan, Leithart, McDurmon, & Morecraft, too!

    There’s death in that there pot!

  43. Hugh Says:

    Eric @ 12:35,

    This is helpful, written by 2 Mormons*:
    http://www.amazon.com/Mormonism-For-Dummies-Jana-Riess/dp/0764571958

    * One a convert & Princeton Sem grad, the other, Heber Kimball’s great-great-great-great grandson.

  44. justbybelief Says:

    “I’ll avoid not only the Muscovites, but also Rushdoony, DeMar, Gentry, Jordan, Leithart, McDurmon, & Morecraft, too!”

    Yup, yup, them’s the ones I’ve been exposed to, and their over zealous disciples.

    And, thanks for the link on Mormonism, Hugh.

  45. LJ Says:

    Eric: “So you don’t believe in an age-of-christian-glory before Christ’s return?”

    I believe that the gates of hell will not prevail against the preaching and advance of the gospel during the millennium, which began with the ascension of Christ and will end with his return in like manner.

    I believe that Jesus is Lord and King and that he is now subduing his enemies, even I who was once his enemy, to the end that righteousness shall fill the earth.

    “Jehovah saith unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, Until I make thine enemies thy footstool” Psa. 110:1

    I believe that …

    “All nations whom thou hast made shall come and worship before thee, O Lord;
    And they shall glorify thy name” Psa. 86:9

    I do not wait for a carnal reign of Christ after his return like the premills. Instead I look with hope and expectation to the triumph of Christ and his gospel in this age. Christ is subduing and saving real people with real lives in this age from every nation, tribe, and tongue. And where that occurs righteousness is advanced as his people present their bodies as living sacrifices to their Lord.

    This does not mean that his people reach perfection or have a righteousness that is their own. The struggles of the flesh still abide. Men still die. But his people get the victory since God has guaranteed it to us. And as more, and more, and more men are saved and begin living the sanctified Christian life the world improves accordingly.

    I believe “all authority” in heaven and on earth has been given to Christ for the performance of this work and none shall stay his hand. The Kingdom of God will be extended in the world through the preaching of the gospel (ordinary means) and the work of the Holy Spirit (extraordinary means) and, eventually, gradually, the whole earth will be subdued and the unsaved (who will still be amongst the wheat) will be few and far between. This is God’s plan and he will order the end and the means to that end accordingly.

    This is not the modernistic and liberal view that the Kingdom of God comes about by naturalistic processes whereby mankind becomes better and better; it is not evolutionary and natural. It is supernatural by the power of God in the preaching of the gospel.

    Sorry if I got a bit verbose. But that’s still not the whole deal.

    LJ

  46. LJ Says:

    Hugh: To be on the safe (biblical) side, I’ll avoid not only the Muscovites, but also Rushdoony, DeMar, Gentry, Jordan, Leithart, McDurmon, & Morecraft, too!

    All these men have clay feet. Many have erred. Best to stick to the Bible 🙂

    LJ

  47. LJ Says:

    Back to Mitt and Mormonism …

    Here’s the deal, none but none of our previous candidates are as orthodox and reformed as we would certainly like.

    But this is a watershed election in my view, similar to the election of Kennedy, whereby a huge leap downward for America became “ordinary” with the election of the first Papist for POTUS.

    Romney has ALREADY crowed his LDS credentials from the pulpit of the Republican National (Rigged) Convention. How much more so will he crow from the Bully Pulpit? God help us!

    Mormonism is about to become mainstream thanks in large part to Republican Christians. This drives me up the wall WORSE than the nitwit evangelicals supporting Rick (I really belong in a Sanitarium) Santorum.

    Lord help me I’m getting really torqued right now … I need a chill pill!!!!!!!

  48. justbybelief Says:

    LJ,

    OK. You use this verse, “All nations whom thou hast made shall come and worship before thee, O Lord;
    And they shall glorify thy name” Psa. 86:9

    To justify the following statements:

    “And as more, and more, and more men are saved and begin living the sanctified Christian life the world improves accordingly.”

    which hinges on this:

    “the whole earth will be subdued and the unsaved (who will still be amongst the wheat) will be few and far between. This is God’s plan and he will order the end and the means to that end accordingly.”

    Thanks! And, this is before Christ returns. Good, you came clean. This is the false Postmil teaching that I have rightly (Biblically) resisted since it was first presented to me.

    “All these men have clay feet.”

    All these men are false teachers.

    Eric

  49. LJ Says:

    this bears repeating:

    “… it’s as though King Jesus doesn’t distinguish between one depraved man whose unbelief manifests itself in political
    oppression and another whose radical depravity would lead him to confess unspeakable things about the Lord.”

  50. LJ Says:

    Eric, you wrote: “Thanks! And, this is before Christ returns. Good, you came clean. This is the false Postmil teaching that I have rightly (Biblically) resisted since it was first presented to me.”

    So you’re premill? I thought you were amill? And if your do hold to a form of Amillenialism, why the comment “And, this is before Christ returns.”? Guess you finally got to have your argument 😉

    But maybe this thread is for Mitt and Mormonism rather than eschatology. Sean’s call.

  51. LJ Says:

    Eric: ” … This is the false Postmil teaching that I have rightly (Biblically) resisted since it was first presented to me.”

    Methinks thou dost kickest against the goads and thou shouldst stopitist before thou stumblest facefirst 😉

    Gotta go back home now and I’ll only have my iPad and I won’t be able to RSVP with the same vigor.

    Did I hear Hugh say “thankfully?” Stop it or I’ll turn you in to the Dog Catcher and he’ll order a drone strike on you abode!

    Cheers,
    LJ

  52. justbybelief Says:

    “Methinks thou dost kickest against the goads and thou shouldst stopitist before thou stumblest facefirst ”

    One can only stumble when one makes claims that the Bible does not support, like saying, as postmils do, that most of mankind will be saved, creating a veritable heaven on earth which will usher in Christ’s reign and twisting scripture, like Psalm 86:9, to support such notions. Calvin was correct when he stated that the human heart is an idol-forge.

    “Guess you finally got to have your argument.”

    In all truth, I hate debate, but by God’s mercy, I hate falsehood even worse and am called, as all Christians are, to confront error where it presents itself.

    Eric

  53. LJ Says:

    Eric stumblist: … “In all truth, I hate debate, but by God’s mercy, I hate falsehood even worse and am called, as all Christians are, to confront error where it presents itself.”

    Ouch! That’s gotta hurt! 🙂

  54. Hugh McCann Says:

    Hugh: To be on the safe (biblical) side, I’ll avoid not only the Muscovites, but also Rushdoony, DeMar, Gentry, Jordan, Leithart, McDurmon, & Morecraft, too!

    LJ: All these men have clay feet. Many have erred. Best to stick to the Bible.

    Well, who’s left, then?! Bahnsen, North, _____? They’re all Dominionista. They all stray from the truth and lead others astray as they proclaim a carnal kingdom come, contra John 19:36.

    We are Postconsummationists.

    Both Postmill and Premill are Preconsummationistic – they want, expect, & work toward pre-consummational glory on the [old] earth, in a carnal 1,000 year victory-reign of Jesus. Utter hooey.

    He reigns totally right now; his kingdom IS come.

  55. Hugh McCann Says:

    That should be John 18:36 ~ Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.

  56. justbybelief Says:

    “He reigns totally right now; his kingdom IS come.”

    Amen, Hugh!

    Bu….t, maybe you’re being overly optimistic (NOT!). It just doesn’t fit the ‘doom and gloom’ epithet we as Amils have endured.

  57. Kyle Vanover Says:

    I’m glad to see I’m not the only one who is concerned about Romney’s Mormon faith. I find myself more and more repulsed by BOTH candidates, to the point that I wonder if I can conscientiously vote at all. Perhaps the better thing for Bible-believing Christians would be to simply focus on getting the right people elected at the local level, since the mayors and councilmen of today will be the governors and presidents of tomorrow. BTW, thanks for the long list of beliefs Mormons share. More folks need to be educated about this!

  58. Denson Dube Says:

    @Sean,
    “First, God himself, who sits enthroned in yonder heavens, is a man like unto one of yourselves, that is the great secret….”

    Some juicy stuff from the Faith Movement: http://www.letusreason.org/pent11.htm

    (Kenneth Copeland) “Every Christian is a god. … You don’t have a god in you, you are one”. (Kenneth Copeland, The Force of Love (Fort Worth, TX: Kenneth Copeland Ministries, 1987), audiotape #02-0028, side 1.)

    (Kenneth Copeland) “Pray to yourself, because I’m in your self and you’re in Myself. We are one Spirit, saith the Lord.”

    (Kenneth Copeland)”…And I say this with all respect so that it don’t upset you too bad, but I say it anyway. When I read in the Bible where He says I AM, I just smile and say, ‘Yes, I AM too.'” (Believer’s Voice of Victory Broadcast, 7/9/1987).

    @Hugh
    “Why no, it’s symbolic…

    No, wait, it’s a tatoo on the forehead…

    No, it’s a micro-chip implanted…

    No, wait, it IS literal; it means he’ll be 6′ tall, weigh 600lbs, & wear size 6 shoes. HAVEN’T YOU EVER READ THE BOOK OF REVELATON?!”

    lol! Without a micro-chip on your forehead, how would your pet ever find you, if you ever got lost?

  59. Sean Gerety Says:

    @Kyle. I agree, although I think would focus more on the House and especially the Senate. Block and tackle until the Republicans wake up and stop trying to drive the emerging liberty wing from the party, or the liberty wing just takes over the party apparatus, and nominates a real Constitutional Conservative in 2016. A fun goal if only to piss off a GOP establishment that excels at losing.

  60. justbybelief Says:

    The problem with the GOP is that it has never been a small government party. From its inception around the time of the Civil War and subsequent election of Lincoln it brought with it the doctrines of the Hamiltonians and the Whigs, that is, ‘public works projects,’ European Merchantilism, and the central bank. This is one of the few problems I have with Ron Paul and statements of his like, “The Republican Party needs to get back to its roots.” The roots of the GOP is what Ron Paul is fighting today and is the mechanism which was trying to crush him throughout the primaries and prior to that. This is why a vote for a Republican is a waste of time. I think the Democrats, as much as I hate to say it, had nobler beginnings. I also think that having an (R) by ones name is the primary (no pun intended) reason one is to be rejected as a candidate rather than one’s being an ‘M’ head. Anyway, I would not be opposed to being a burr in their saddle.

  61. LJ Says:

    If you haven’t seen this it is really funny. Obama and Romney side … side by side:

    http://www.nytimes.com/video/2012/09/16/opinion/100000001786172/patriot-game.html

    LJ

  62. Kyle Vanover Says:

    I have a lot of other issues with Romney besides his being a Mormon – I disagree with him on several things and I also have little confidence in him because he has flip-flopped on several of the issues – but it bothers me that it doesn’t bother more people that he’s a Mormon. So many of my Christian friends embrace him as “the Christian choice”, but how can we expect someone to live up to Christian standards if he is not a Christian himself? I’m equally perplexed by the number of people who claim the Republican party as “the Christian party”. There is no Christian party. There are people in both parties who are Christians. And there are some issues where I think the Democratic party is being more Christian than the Republicans. It’s important to remember we’re voting for the man, not just the party, and so the man’s religious beliefs are just as important as his stance on any of the issues when we evaluate whether or not he is a person we want as a leader.

    Sorry for the rant.

  63. justbybelief Says:

    LJ,

    “If you haven’t seen this it is really funny. Obama and Romney side…”

    I think those guys would say almost anything they could get away with to get elected. Nice Vid.

    Eric

  64. LJ Says:

    Kyle: you wrote “… but it bothers me that it doesn’t bother more people that he’s a Mormon.”

    Me too!

    But some people think the POTUS (President of the United States) is equivalent to the Dog Catcher such that it’s really no big deal anyway.

    Add to that some people say “what does it matter?” since the world is full of wickedness, always will be and nothing, even the preaching of the gospel, can change that. I mean let’s be real, why plug holes on a sinking ship? Let’s not waste our time fussin’ over which sinner get’s elected.

    Just imagine the really, really, silly and apparently heretical notion that the gates of Hell cannot (will not?) prevail against the onslaught of King Jesus and his army of followers armed with the gospel of grace and empowered by the Holy Spirit. Don’t be one to let your imagination run wild and think any nation can be truly converted, cause that’s not in the Bible.

    What’s that? You thought it was? No, no, no, that’s only an hallucination. When you quit tripping start over and carefully spiritualize all texts in the Bible that appear to claim that there are any positive effects on a man’s life that accompany belief in Christ and his gospel. That’s all post-consummation. In fact, there is no “new man in Christ” since that’s just some carnal notion dreamed up by people like Augustine, Calvin, the Puritans, Hodge (both of them), Warfield, M. Kik, and assorted other misguided false teachers.

    Best to just huddle up, barricade the doors, stay in our little enclaves (some people call them churches), and fagetaboutit because this nation, in fact “the nations” cannot be helped or penetrated in any way by Christ in this dispensation, i.e., pre-consummation; at least not in any way we could ever tell in any perceivable manner.

    So, take a deep breath my friend, chill out, and don’t worry about a thing cause there’s not a dang thing you can do about it anyway.

    Cheers,
    LJ

  65. justbybelief Says:

    LJ,

    “Don’t be one to let your imagination run wild and think any nation can be truly converted, cause that’s not in the Bible.”

    Though, this may happen (national/global conversion), you have no guarantee that it will and certainly no promise of God to that effect in scripture. Therefore, it is absurd to create a doctrine saying that it will happen. We can hope and pray for mass awakening in our country, but God has not promised that he will do so.

    Eric

  66. LJ Says:

    King James Bible (Cambridge Ed.)

    “Ask of me, and I shall give thee the heathen for thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession.”

    Hath God really said?

    LJ

  67. LJ Says:

    Psalm 2. Somebody told me it was the most referenced Psalm in the NT.

    The reign of the Lord’s Annointed:

    1Why are the nations in an uproar
             And the peoples devising a vain thing?
    2The kings of the earth take their stand
             And the rulers take counsel together
             Against the LORD and against His Anointed, saying,

    3“Let us tear their fetters apart
             And cast away their cords from us!”

    4He who sits in the heavens laughs,
             The Lord scoffs at them.

    5Then He will speak to them in His anger
             And terrify them in His fury, saying,

    6“But as for Me, I have installed My King
             Upon Zion, My holy mountain.”

    7“I will surely tell of the decree of the LORD:
             He said to Me, ‘You are My Son,
             Today I have begotten You.

    8‘Ask of Me, and I will surely give the nations as Your inheritance,
             And the very ends of the earth as Your possession.

    9‘You shall break them with a rod of iron,
             You shall shatter them like earthenware.’”

    10Now therefore, O kings, show discernment;
             Take warning, O judges of the earth.

    11Worship the LORD with reverence
             And rejoice with trembling.

    12Do homage to the Son, that He not become angry, and you perish in the way,
             For His wrath may soon be kindled.
             How blessed are all who take refuge in Him!

    Of course this is post-consummation and cannot be understood to mean during the period between the Lord’s first and last coming.

    LJ

  68. LJ Says:

    Verse 8: Ask of Me, and I will surely give the nations as Your inheritance, And the very ends of the earth as Your possession.

    LJ

  69. justbybelief Says:

    LJ,

    The quoting of this passage does not take others into consideration. One Reformation doctrine is that scripture interprets scripture. Though these passages may seem to say what your espousing they must be taken in light of the rest of the God’s word.

    Eric

  70. justbybelief Says:

    LJ,

    The New Testament is the authoritative interpreter of the Old, nothing else. These passages are to be understood in light of the clear teaching of the New Testament.

    Eric

  71. LJ Says:

    The hermeneutical principle that scripture interprets scripture is one I gladly endorse. With that in mind may I sumit, in support of a Biblical eschatology of victory the following verses? BTW, I’m a classical postmill and not a recon postmill. Thus I would be more in line with Hodge, Edwards, Calvin(?), and Warfield than Rushdooney, De Mar, or others in the Recon group.

    For your eschatological edification:

    (1) In the OT – Num. 14:21; Psalms 2:6-9; 22:27-28; 47; 72:8-11; 110:1-2; 138:4-5 (cf. 102:15); Isa. 2:2-4; 9:6-7; 11:6-10; 45:22-25; 65; 66; Jer. 31:31-34; Daniel 2:31-35; Zech. 9:9f.; 13:1; 14:9.

    (2) In the NT – Matt. 13:31-33; 28:18-20; John 12:31-32; 16:33; I John 2:13-14; 3:8; 4:4,14; 5:4-5; Acts 2:32-36,41; Rom. 11:25-32; I Cor. 15:20-26, 57-58; Hebrews 1:8-9,13; 2:5-9; Rev. 2:25-27; 3:7-9; 7:9-10; 11:15; 19:11-21.

    I fully intend to write-in Dr. Ron Paul since he is the LAST CHRISTIAN STANDING in the Presidential race and the only candidate that comes close to my political views.

    I agree with Sean, however, that we ought to concentrate on Congress since the “Dogcatcher in Chief” (Hugh :-)) will have far less power in shaping the next four years than they will.

    LJ

  72. justbybelief Says:

    LJ,

    The verses you reference simply do not teach an incremental mass global conversion to Christ in the last days. A simple honest reading of each of them will confirm this. The silence of these passages concerning what Postmils assert is deafening. They do teach that Christ’s kingdom is now and forever, though, and in Christ, his people are, and will be victorious. In this age, one thing is guaranteed: suffering, all the way up to the end. In fact, Paul, makes it clear that suffering is a given for Christians.

    The Postmil error is refuted by the following plain and clear passages (clear passages interpret not so clear passages) of scripture:

    2 Thes. 2: 3, 4: Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come [A FALLING AWAY FIRST], and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

    The above verses in 2 Thes. 2 goes hand in hand with the following two sections of scripture: Matt. 24, Revelation 20.

    Eric

  73. LJ Says:

    I know that Gary North is not much in favor here and there are some good reasons for some disfavor being directed at him. But, on a number of issues, e.g., economics, he’s worth a hearing in my view. Anyhow, here’s an article very relevant to the election, Mr. Mittens Romney, and the FED:

    http://lewrockwell.com/north/north1202.html

    LJ

  74. LJ Says:

    Eric says: “They do teach that Christ’s kingdom is now and forever, though, and in Christ, his people are, and will be victorious.”

    Well on that we certainly agree. In fact there is historically much agreement between Amills and Classic Postmills.

    I take the passages as indicative of the millennium, the last days, and believe that Godliness and Christians, living out their sanctification in the the Christian life, bring their own reward. We are commanded “Seek ye first his Kingdom, and his righteousness, and all these things shall be added unto you.” And “Godliness is profitable for ALL THINGS, having promise of the life that now is,” as well as “of that which is to come” (I Tim. 4:8). See Loraine Boettner’s chapter “Material Prosperity During the Millenium, Presbyterian and Reformed.

    “The wilderness and the dry land shall be glad; and the desert shall rejoice, and blossom as the rose” (Isa. 35:1).

    Be of good cheer Eric, the Lord will bless us and the Bride will be ready when the Bridegroom returns!

    LJ

  75. Steve M Says:

    LJ: “I fully intend to write-in Dr. Ron Paul since he is the LAST CHRISTIAN STANDING in the Presidential race and the only candidate that comes close to my political views.

    I agree with Sean, however, that we ought to concentrate on Congress since the “Dogcatcher in Chief” (Hugh ) will have far less power in shaping the next four years than they will.”

    SM: Why should we write-in guaranteed to lose candidates only in the Presidential race? Why not be consistent and write-in sure losers for Congress as well? I am sure I can find candidates I like better than the ones running. Isn’t it immoral to vote for a Representative or Senator that is not a Christian? My voters pamphlet doesn’t list the religious beliefs of every candidate. Even if it did, how can I believe what a politician says. Nobody admits to being an atheist when running for office. The only righteous thing to do is to refrain from voting at all.

    That will send the clearest message!

  76. justbybelief Says:

    Steve,

    “Isn’t it immoral to vote for a Representative or Senator that is not a Christian?”

    Personally, I think its OK to vote for a non-christian as long as they have a track record of consistently obeying their oath of office.

    “I agree with Sean, however, that we ought to concentrate on Congress”

    I think that’s OK too, but look at what has just happened. Obama went into Libya without even a nod to congress. And, the house armed services committee was just told by Panetta that the U.S. military takes its marching orders from NATO and the U.N., not congress. I don’t wonder if congress is just there as a remnant of the old republic just to make us believe we’re still free.

    Eric

  77. LJ Says:

    Steve, I feel your pain. It’s a lousy deal. This is what happens when a country, a Republic, goes so far astray.

    Franklin is reported to have said that America was a Republic … if you can keep it. I fear we lost it a long time ago.

    You wrote: ” Why not be consistent and write-in sure losers for Congress as well?”

    I probably will.

    LJ

  78. LJ Says:

    Steve,

    If you believe that voting for Romney to keep Obama out of office is the right thing to do more power to you! If you want to vote for Romney and other mainstream Republican candidates I don’t condemn you for doing that any more than I will if my wife so chooses. But for me it’s done. I can’t vote for these Republican candidates any longer. They’ve been shoving them down my throat with the pill being more and more liberalism until I can’t swallow it any more. I’ve been doing this for 41 years and that’s it for me. My decision is according to conscience and I’ll be judged accordingly. God help me I can do no other.

    LJ

  79. justbybelief Says:

    Keep your powder dry, gents.

  80. Steve M Says:

    LJ
    Listen to your wife. She’s wiser than you are.

  81. Steve M Says:

    Four more years of Obama is a disaster from which this country will never recover. Those who don’t vote to stop him will be responsible for the results of his being elected to a second term.

  82. justbybelief Says:

    Been there, done that.

    Voted for Reagan to keep Carter out. What I got was Soviet education merged with American Education, 3x increase in size of government, continuance of cold-war facade, Fascism clothed in Libertarian rhetoric, and much, much more.

    Voted for the ‘New World Order’ proponent, Bush I, twice.

    Voted for Bush II to keep Gore & Kerry out. What I got was the Patriot Act and two illegal wars and all the policies in place that the usurper in chocolate mansion is implementing.

    Fool me once shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me, Fool me thrice, shame on me, Fool me four times, shame on me, Fool me five times, shame on me.

    No more shame, mass manipulation, or kool-aid for me.

  83. LJ Says:

    Eric: “Fool me once shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me, Fool me thrice, shame on me, Fool me four times, shame on me, Fool me five times, shame on me.

    No more shame, mass manipulation, or kool-aid for me.”

    Eric, I hate it when we agree 😉

    Steve,
    What Eric wrote above is EXACTLY my view. Thanks to Eric for the clarity of thought … now if we can just work on his eschatology we’ll be making solid progress 🙂

    LJ

  84. LJ Says:

    Eric: … I got was the Patriot Act

    Don’t forget that other wonderful present from Obama’s fellow travellers the NEOCON Repubs … Something called the NDAA.

    LJ

  85. justbybelief Says:

    Ahhh, the NDAA…troops in the streets, citizen disappearance, indefinite detention and/or internment, perpetual war–a postmils dream of the coming kingdom 🙂

    Sorry, LJ, I couldn’t resist.

    Anyway, its a good thing we’re justified. Amen!

  86. LJ Says:

    … a postmils dream …

    That would be a Gulag with room service 🙂

  87. justbybelief Says:

    If the waitresses are right, I might change eschatology.

  88. Hugh Says:

    Eric (9/20 @ 9:35am) –

    Sure, but what do you want for nothing? A rubber biscuit?

    Look what you helped to do: Keep out Carter, Mondale, Dukakis, Gore, Kerry.

    Clinton beat Bush & Dole. Wouldn’t they have been preferable to Baleful Bill?

    I don’t like my choices much.

    But would we really want Washington or Adams or Jefferson et. al. if we could get them?


    …if it don’t bounce back, you go hungry…

  89. justbybelief Says:

    Hugh,

    “Sure, but what do you want for nothing? A rubber biscuit?”

    Rubber or no, tis all dog food. 🙂

    “But would we really want Washington or Adams or Jefferson et. al.”

    I wanted Ron Paul, an honorable man who obeyed his oath.

    “I don’t like my choices much.”

    Me neither.

    If we’ve spiraled to the point of accepting the choice between the lesser of two evils, then, this is all we’ll ever get. Aren’t we to aspire to more?

    “”Wouldn’t they have been preferable to Baleful Bill?”

    I don’t know how you embed a video in a comment like you’ve done above (help). I’d rather do that than post the link. Since I don’t know, here’s the link…

    King Bush I indoctrinating us on the New World Order while posing as a conservative…

    As he speaks it looks as though he’s possessed.

    Eric

  90. Hugh Says:

    Eric et. al..,

    Would you sit out an election if the two frontrunners were a Hindu & a Muslim?

    Or, two Muslims?

  91. Steve M Says:

    Or, two Deists?

  92. Hugh Says:

    Two anybodies not subscribing to the WCF.

    Or the Solemn League & Cov’t…

  93. justbybelief Says:

    Hugh and Steve,

    I’m sitting out the election this time around maybe for good. I supported Ron Paul before I knew that he professed to, “Get to God through Christ.” These are his words, not mine. I don’t know whether R.P. is a Presbyterian and I would still vote for him.

    I’m not convinced that one should not vote for a Mormon. I won’t vote for Romney because he’s cut from the same cloth is Obama–he’s dishonest. If there were a Mormon who had a record like Ron Paul I wouldn’t hesitate to vote for him. I have Mormon friends who believe Romney is the same as Obama and will not vote for him.

    “Would you sit out an election if the two frontrunners were a Hindu & a Muslim?

    Or, two Muslims?”

    “Or, two Deists?”

    Not necessarily. Although Muslim doctrine (can’t remember where or when I read it) states that they may lie to the infidel (much like the Jesuits), even over great periods of time to gain their trust in order to eventually gain control over them. I’m not sure Hindu’s are so militant. I really don’t think I’d ever vote for a Muslim.

    Article VI, paragraph 3 of the U.S. Constitution:

    The Senators and Representatives before mentioned, and the Members of the several State Legislatures, and all executive and judicial Officers, both of the United States and of the several States, shall be bound by Oath or Affirmation, to support this Constitution; but no religious test shall ever be required as a qualification to any office or public trust under the United States.

    I think this article had more to do with tests of the Christian religion rather than a test among all the religions. Please correct me if I’m wrong.

    Eric


  94. Any thoughts on Libertarian Party candidate Gary Johnson?


  95. Also, Ron Paul is an Arminian Baptist, and I hear Johnson is a Lutheran, although I don’t know what stripe.

  96. justbybelief Says:

    Patrick,

    The only issues I had with Johnson was his view of taxes and his inability to distinguish between unconstitutional and constitutional ones. Other than that I liked his platform. His V.P. candidate interviewed on a local radio show near here in Missoula MT. He sounded OK. That might be an option for me too.

    Eric

  97. LJ Says:

    when i think of romney I can’t help but remember the line from a country song …

    “I wouldn’t take ‘er to a dawg fight, or any other place I’ve ever been. I wouldn’t take ‘er to a dawg fight, even if she had a chance to win!”

    LJ

  98. Steve M Says:

    Eric

    If I were you, I wouldn’t lose any sleep over concerns about any part of Johnson’s platform ever being enacted. I can’t say the same for many elements of Obama’s plan for this country. It is very likely that I will be forced to live with the results of his twisted vision if he is elected.

  99. justbybelief Says:

    Steve,

    “It is very likely that I will be forced to live with the results of his twisted vision if he is elected.”

    I feel your pain. I started getting ‘ready’ just before the last election. Since then I’ve had an exponential awakening. We ALREADY live under tyranny. Everyday we’re being pushed further and further under this system. We’ve been taken over and now they’re simply mopping up and solidifying.

    I was pulled over last fall for not having my child buckled in and began to converse with the deputy about the unreasonableness of the ticket in light of Common Law. I steered our conversation around to gun confiscation and asked that since he was willing to enforce any law that he was told, so far, would he go ahead and confiscate firearms if ordered to do so by his superiors. His response was that he would do anything the sheriff’s department ordered him to do. Sound familiar? What a commentary on our times.

    Here’s the problem: Our state and local governments should be protecting us from encroachments by the federal gov’t. They’re not. In fact they’re working in collusion with the federal government. Look in every state in the union. The alphabet agencies of the federal gov’t are occupying the states just as they are occupying countries around the world with the Army, Navy, Marines, and Air Force. Have you seen the new Navy commercial on T.V.? The Navy is now being called a ‘Global Force for Good,’ video here: (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h3wtUCPWmeI). This is complete propaganda and B.S. Americans (and Naval Commanders) should be jumping up and down screaming. They’re not, because they’re blind. Obama, or whoever is in the Chocolate Mansion can only do what they do if our state and local government’s (and military men) comply with what he dictates.

    Stalin could only do what he did if everyone complied with his words. The real question is this: Why does everyone simply comply with unlawful orders?

    In my view, it shouldn’t matter who occupies the Malevolent Mansion if other elements in gov’t simply obeyed their oaths.

    I believe the reason this is going on in religion and politics today on a mass scale is explained very well in the Trinity Foundation Manifesto. We live in The Age of Irrationalism.

    Eric

  100. Steve M Says:

    “We ALREADY live under tyranny.”

    And the way to solve that problem is to vote for Gary Johnson?

  101. justbybelief Says:

    Steve,

    And, O-statist, may be only one of our worries.

    besides this… http://www.prepperpodcast.com/technology-send-hell-fema-camps/#axzz27atBhBTo

    and this… http://www.thecovertprepper.com/?p=600

    Have you considered this…http://woodpilereport.com/

    Eric

  102. justbybelief Says:

    Steve,

    “And the way to solve that problem is to vote for Gary Johnson?”

    No, only assuage my conscience. We’ve gone to far to correct anything at the ballot box.

    Eric

  103. LJ Says:

    I like the last paragraph:

    And, perhaps, appealing to fear (“do you want Barack Obama to get reelected?”) is NOT, the most effective tactic to woo Ron Paul supporters, since they don’t see things the way the bipartisan elites do: as a horse race heavily moderated by the media in which personality trumps character and substantive issues are relegated by a childish sense of beating and humiliating the other side. They are better than that.

    LJ

  104. LJ Says:

    Eric wrote above: “His response was that he would do anything the sheriff’s department ordered him to do. Sound familiar? What a commentary on our times.”

    That’s pitiful. My son is a corporal in a city police department; SWAT Team, all that stuff, very gung ho.

    But, he is a member of Oath Keepers and has told me categorically that he WILL NOT confiscate firearms under some general marshal law rule and that the vast majority of his fellow officers would refuse that order also. Many of his fellow officers, especially the SWAT guys, are ex military.

    He is very suspicious of our government right now and I’d like to think I had something to do with it. But he’s a big boy.

    LJ

  105. justbybelief Says:

    LJ,

    Stewart Rhodes, the founder of Oath Keepers, is from just north of here in Missoula, MT–the Petri Dish for ICLEI and Agenda 21. He spoke at a meeting in which I asked him before the audience the following question: “While the concept of Oath-Keepers is a good, the tenets of which are already embedded in the oath of office, with its ’10 things I will not do,’ what about the violations of the oath of office currently taking place? Why aren’t you telling current soldiers that they are violating their oaths of office while participating in illegal wars? One cannot uphold the principles of liberty while violating the very document established it. Further, how can one call themselves an ‘oath keeper’ if they’re violating the Constitution NOW even if they won’t do those ’10 things you proscribe.'”

    I cannot remember his response, exactly, but remember it being along the lines of it being a ‘place to start.’ I was not satisfied with it.

    Our public servants have sworn an oath to uphold and defend the Constitution. Anything short of it, however noble, is a violation of that oath. They should be told in no uncertain terms what a violation of that oath of office is. The deputy that I confronted above is a professing Christian (found that out later). He has sworn the oath of office to Jesus Christ, anything short of that oath is blasphemy against that Name.

    Eric

  106. justbybelief Says:

    The above post segment…

    “One cannot uphold the principles of liberty while violating the very document established it.”

    Should read…

    “One cannot uphold the principles of liberty while violating the very document established to protect it.”

  107. justbybelief Says:

    LJ,

    “That’s pitiful.”

    Yes!

    And, when I went before the judge in traffic court I asked her if she enforced every law that came across her desk. She said that if she didn’t she would not have a job. I responded by saying that this was the problem in our country, everyone just does what they’re told in opposition to our founders who laid their wealth, lives, and honor on the alter of liberty.

    I proceeded my questioning and asked her if she remembered the trails at Nurmberg and the fear and trembling of the Nazis upon discovering that their defense of ‘obeying orders’ was illegitimate. This judge got up from behind the bench and proceed to her quarters saying that the conversation was over because I’d accused her of being a Nazi. That’s the attitude of our public servants toward us. Sadly enough, we’re told by most elders in the visible church that they’re our over lords not our servants.

    Eric

  108. LJ Says:

    Eric: I cannot remember his response, exactly, but remember it being along the lines of it being a ‘place to start.’ I was not satisfied with it.

    I feel your pain. But I’ve learned one step at a time. It’s like pushing on a string. Patience is a virtue, a virtue I am sorely missing. But I’m learning … 🙂

    LJ

  109. Hugh Says:

    Speaking of mindless adherence to procedure and rules,

    Three fun letters:

    === T === S === A ===

  110. Hugh Says:

    TERSE & RIGHT ON:

    One cannot uphold the principles of liberty while violating the very document establishing it.

  111. LJ Says:

    Hugh, Eric,
    We’re talking about a major paradigm shift in the average American’s thinking. I’m sure I’m not telling you anything you don’t already know. I’m not the patient type, a character flaw that has not been mitigated in my nearly 60 years on earth, but I’m working on it and by the grace of God, before I die, I’ll have the patience of Solomon.

    In the meantime, let’s keep preaching the gospel and if the Lord should be pleased once again to bring about something like the Reformation, well, what a blessing that would be, eh? Of course I’m looking for one without the good guys getting persecuted since I’m basically a chicken. Pray for martyr’s grace I guess.

    I’m keeping my powder dry; MRE’s are stacked up in the garage; water purification is adequate; I go to the shooting range regularly; and my iPad holds a charge for at least a day. What more could a mother want?

    LJ

  112. justbybelief Says:

    LJ,

    “=== T === S === A ===”

    I’ve discovered the [hidden] meaning of the acronym, I let my imagination run. Maybe I shouldn’t have, but did.

    Tell me, how could a Christian in good conscience do an advanced pat-down? Or, allow his wife/children to be groped by one? Will Romney/Ryan address this? I think not! The war on terror, I mean, the war on our rights, roles on.

    Eric

  113. LJ Says:

    Democrat or Republican, makes little difference. Our individual liberties are being systematically taken away. There’s little republican about today’s Republicans, maybe a few only. That’s why I won’t support Capt. Underpants running for the White House.

    There’s certainly much that is democratic (meant in its worst sense) about the Democrats. That’s why there’s not a single one of them that will ever get my vote.

    Here’s Ralph Nader, not on my guest list, interviewed by a Politico guy on Obama the war monger, prosecutor, judge, jury, and executioner:

    http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0912/81649.html#ixzz27a721uWs

    LJ

  114. justbybelief Says:

    “I’m not the patient type…”

    Ditto. I’m tired of being nickeled and dimed to death. I kinda want to get-it-on before my kids have to fight this.

  115. justbybelief Says:

    Have you guys considered these also, gov’t aside…

    http://woodpilereport.com/

  116. LJ Says:

    That guy Remus writes kinda catchy.

    Looters? Here in LA County? Not to worry. I’m installing a 100 ft. X 25 ft. X 10 ft. deep subterranean prepper bungalow, complete with nuclear blast door, stacked to the ceiling with gourmet MRE’s and boxes of sabot slugs.

    Come visit.

    Not!

    LJ

  117. LJ Says:

    Eric: … Where do I get nuclear blast doors?

    http://www.nuclerblastdoorscheap.com

    I think they take credit cards.

    Cheers,
    LJ

  118. pht Says:

    Thanks for the articles and links in the article. I’ve alreays considered mormonism a cult; but as usual, reading the details in black and white is eye-opening.

    I doubt anyone will have the chance to test mitt on his first principals … or that mitt would honestly answer those sorts of questions.

    From what Little I gather, the LDS, like other cults, sheds it’s skin anew to fit it’s culture while fulfilling the human desires of its current leaders.

    Does anyone have a good line on websites or other online information relating to LDS ethics?

  119. justbybelief Says:

    pht,

    “From what Little I gather, the LDS, like other cults, sheds it’s skin anew to fit it’s culture while fulfilling the human desires of its current leaders.”

    Couldn’t the same be said of Christianity in light of the likes of George W. Bush and Woodrow Wilson? I think Wilson was one of the most wicked presidents this country has ever seen. He kinda makes Obama, or a potential Romulan, look like a novice.

    Eric

  120. pht Says:

    I suppose you could say so, but only if by “christianity” you mean something other than the faith, given once for all, that doesn’t change.

    I was referring to the faith, given once for all (in the bible alone 😀 )

    As for woodrow wilson … you and I share an intense dislike of him… Bush the second … IMO, almost too mushy to hate or really like.

    …anyways… some oddities cropping up;

    A google search on “mormon theocratic ethics” (minus the quotation marks) yields some interesting stuff.

  121. justbybelief Says:

    pht,

    “I suppose you could say so, but only if by “christianity” you mean something other than the faith, given once for all, that doesn’t change.”

    No doubt that W.W. (Presbyterian: http://www.opc.org/nh.html?article_id=704) was no Christian, nor was G.W.B. (Grahamite) but they did profess the name of Christ and W.W. supposedly read his Bible every day–what he was gleaning is anyone’s guess.

    God says about the Jews, “The name of God is blasphemed among the gentiles through you as it is written.” Is the same true for those who take the name of Christ? Thus, we get the bumper stickers like, “Who would Jesus bomb,” (made me laugh my head off when I first saw it because it throws it back in our teeth) in the aftermath of the illegal invasion of Iraq and Afghanistan.

    Though the Mormon ‘church’ has its erroneous teachings, that doesn’t guarantee every Mormon will embrace every one of those teachings or have ulterior motives that serve some Mormon agenda when going into public service. I would judge each man individually, Mormon or otherwise.

    Wilson was a Presbyterian. He would never get my vote. In fact, he should’ve been hung with a short rope from a tall tree after taking us into WWI and signing the Federal Reserve Act among other treasonous things.

    Eric

  122. justbybelief Says:

    This brings up another point. Whether it be the president of the United States, the county Sheriff, or a city council member the church should be no respecter of persons but should hold public servants accountable to their oaths to Christ–church discipline. However, the church usually fawns over their ‘celebrities.’

    The implications of this would be phenomenal. Try telling a soldier that they may only go to war on constitutional grounds. Tell a cop that he has no authority to make you be a witness against yourself in a potential DUI situation. Try telling a lawyer that the jury has the authority to judge the law not only the facts in a case.

    The modern church should not be called ‘The Church Triumphant’ but ‘The Church Obsequious.’

    Eric

  123. justbybelief Says:

    Hugh,

    You brought up the TSA earlier, have you seen this?

    http://ericpetersautos.com/2012/09/27/tsa-freeze-training/

    Eric

  124. Pht Says:

    JBB… I’m not under any illusions that Mitt is “mormonism in the flesh” … I brought it up because I wish someone, anyone, would ask after politicians first principals in debate and interviews.

    Nobody can really be prepared for the office of the POTUS … so they will have to fall back to their first principals when making the hard decisions.

    I get so irked when people act as if a candidates most basic views simply … don’t matter.

    Also: speaking of keeping people in their constituional boundaries … you should see NARLO’s no-trespass sign. It’s great; if you ignore the fact that it appeals to the 14th “amendment” (it never passed the test to actually become an amendment)…

    If our leaders refuse to keep people inside of the constitutional boundaries that they give lip service to … well, the citizenry has the duty to do so too, using whatever bibilcally upright and constitutionally legal means at our disposal.

  125. Anonymous Foreigner Says:

    “In 1960, John Kennedy went from Washington to Texas to assure Protestant preachers he would not obey the pope. In 2001, George Bush came from Texas up to Washington to assure a group of Catholic Bishops he would obey the pope.” Washington Times, April 16, 2001.

  126. LJ Says:

    I like Ben Swan:

  127. Hugh Says:

    All men are liars (Psalm 116:11)
    Top Ten Mormon Missionary Lies
    http://www.mrm.org/ten-lies

  128. Steve M Says:

    It’s a good thing Obama hasn’t had any misleading ads, or I’m sure the Christian Science Monitor would be pointing out the misleading parts. Wouldn’t they? Have they?

  129. LJ Says:

    Hugh … Christian Science Monitor monitors Mormon Mitt Romney … Nice alliteration 🙂

  130. Hugh Says:

    Steve – Of course they would – they’re religious, and we know all religious people are above-board.

  131. Hugh Says:

    I have concluded that while BHO may have his demon, der Mittens has seven.

  132. LindaSDF Says:

    After you read this article, you know as much about “Mormonism” as you did before you read the article. My advice is, find out from Mormons what Mormons believe and why.
    And to Lauren: God would NEVER cause an accident like that, to keep people away from what is wrong. Only Satan would cause bodily injury like that. God would have been a little more benign, like running out of gas, or can’t get your car started or something.

  133. Hugh Says:

    LindaSDF,

    What in the above list is legitimate, what is incorrect?

    You err, saying no one learned from this article. I learned that the LDS teaches that Mary had sex with a bloke named “Elohim.” That I did not know.

    (In Rome, she’s perpetually a virgin; in Salt Lake City, she never was?)

  134. Hugh Says:

    And, Linda, how are you certain of what God would or would “NEVER” do?

    Why is Lauren’s understanding of God’s providence illegitimate?

    Thank you.

  135. Jon Says:

    Mormons hold to so many silly beleifs! Actually, C. S. Lewis said animals might resurrect in us just as we resurrect in Christ. He thought they might be taken up in us since we are to them as parents. As owners, we give them personality. They find their meaning in relation to us. I guess one could go through the entire chain of being like that: minerals in plants; plants in animals; animals in humans; humans in Christ. We have some justification to think that way unlike Mormons who reject Scripture as their final authroity.


Leave a Reply

Fill in your details below or click an icon to log in:

WordPress.com Logo

You are commenting using your WordPress.com account. Log Out / Change )

Twitter picture

You are commenting using your Twitter account. Log Out / Change )

Facebook photo

You are commenting using your Facebook account. Log Out / Change )

Google+ photo

You are commenting using your Google+ account. Log Out / Change )

Connecting to %s


%d bloggers like this: